Watching the ESPN show, Pete Rose on Trial, I'm reminded of the greatest baseball controversy of my generation: Did Pete Rose bet on baseball? Is he eligible for induction into the Hall of Fame? Has he been punished enough for what he has done, as well as what he was accused of? It's not clear, but it's certainly becoming more and more of a conversation piece.
The first odd bit about this show in particular is the choice of prosecuting attorney: Alan Dershowitz, a defense attorney. This might be an indication of the swell for popular support to just forgive Rose and allow him into the Hall. It might also just be that Dershowitz is a media whore.
Did Rose actually bet on baseball while the manager of the Reds? It's unclear. There is a wealth of circumstantial evidence that he did, but is circumstantial evidence (that has never been formally pursued in a court of law) enough?
"But Rose signed a document saying that he and MLB would settle with the understanding that Rose would be permanently banned from baseball!" I hear you saying. (Well, maybe the more baseball-savvy of you are saying that.) I've heard some interesting objections to that whole process:
On the other hand, I don't think MLB not treating compulsive gambling as an illness is exactly the problem. Johnny Cochrane, like any good defense lawyer, is attempting to absolve Rose from any personal accountability. The question at hand is not MLB's handling of addictions, the question is Rose's eligibility for induction into the Hall.
In one case, Rose could have foregone this whole thing by admitting he betted on baseball. In another case, why should he admit something he didn't do, especially when he has admitted to so much more (betting on other sports, being a compulsive gambler, etc.)? In another another case, someone with any addiction who isn't fully convinced of his problem will offer up a bone to appear to be reformed; it's extremely hard to admit one's complete and utter depravity. (Excepting Calvinists; they are all too ready to admit total depravity.)
But I digress: the question is whether or not Rose belongs in the Hall of Fame. I think he does, based on his impact as a player. I'm young enough to have seen more time with Rose as banned from baseball than to have seen him play. Nonetheless, his on-field contributions (as I understand them from history) warrant his induction into the Hall of Fame, even as his actions as a manager and compulsive gambler warrant his continued banning from his active participation in baseball as a player, manager, owner, or in other capacities. But I reserve the right to change my mind... :-)
What do you think?
Posted by pcg at July 17, 2003 6:10 PMI think Pete Rose deserves to be in the Hall of Fame...after he's dead. A lifetime ban from baseball should be just that, a lifetime ban.
When Shoeless Joe Jackson was banned for life, it included the hall of fame and any more involvement in baseball. Even after he's been dead for decades, he is still not in the hall, although you may argue whether or not he put up the numbers to get in. I also think it is fair to say that Joe Jackson did far worse than Pete Rose (contrary to Kevin Costner's take) by throwing games of the World Series.
But for me, I think Rose deserves to be banned from the hall because he did agree to be banned from baseball, and in doing so he admitted some measure of guilt. Now he's going around saying he never did bet on baseball and a host of other stories that change depending on when you hear him speak.
Plus, the other primary motivation for him in wanting to get the ban lifted is so that he can get back to managing. While his legacy is certainly a concern, he also wants the option of being involved in baseball again. Lifting the ban would essentially remove all the consequences he agreed to take when he signed off on the ban in the first place. As Brooks Robinson said, if I didn't do anything wrong I wouldn't have signed off on a lifetime ban.
All in all, I think he should be in the Hall, but I also think he shouldn't be around when he's inducted.
Posted by: bill on July 21, 2003 11:41 AMchristine is mean
Posted by: on October 8, 2003 8:55 AMj/k
Posted by: on October 8, 2003 8:56 AMPete Rose deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. He is one of the greatest players ever in baseball, but since the comissoner has all power, Rose is on the ineligible list. Anybody on the inelgible list may not be elected to the hall. Therefore it is up to the MLB and not the Hall of Fame. But the reason Rose should not be banned is he did nothing to inhibit the games. Gambling might be bad in some peoples eyes, but you put a man in the Hall of Fame for his on field ability not wheter he was a good guy or not. Ty Cobb is suppsosedly one of the biggest jerks ever where is he?
Posted by: Nick Johnston on November 11, 2003 2:55 PMThis is all bullcrap!!!! You can't take away a man's ability to play the game. Banned from baseball is okay but to not induct him into the hall of fame is crap...He is by far one of the greatest baseball players of all time.
Pete Rose is one of the greatest players to ever live. He dedicated is life to baseball so I know he won't jeperdize it for gambleing. He has benn interviewed lots of times and said he bet on football but not baseball. He is not guilty and everyone knows it.
Posted by: Don Santos on December 2, 2003 12:50 PMThe guy has a lower lifetime batting average than
Hank Aaron and about 600 less homers. All he did
was play more games and go to bat more times than
anyone else. Does that warrant selection if he were eligible.
I agree with the comment that if he's allowed to get in, it should be (1)after Shoeless Joe, and
(2) after he's dead.
Gambling is a sickness according to medical experts. I am just a baseball lover and had just e few chances to watch Pete Rose play. It is a shame that he bet on the game and a conpulsive gambler would bet his mother just to make money. Many people knew he was doing what he finally admitted to but nobody came to offer him any help. After he was found "guilty" (only by the commisioner) then every one became experts in Hall Of Fame rules. Pete was, without any doubt, the best all around player in this history. He deserve his place in that HALL if the HOF want to maintain is credibility about recognizing the greatest players for longivity in the game, consistency in hitting, aggressiveness in the game and how a player put his heart into the game. Pete Rose was that player for 24 years and he MUST be placed into the Hall Of Fame, not after he die but while he can enjoy with his family and friends what he accomplished on the game of basball. Lets not mix apples with oranges.
Posted by: Carmelo Rivera on January 6, 2004 6:44 AMhe was arguably the greatest player ever. just because he gambled is no reason to keep him from being enducted. i do not, however, think he should be to coach ever again.
Posted by: Andrew Rathbun on January 6, 2004 9:51 PMPete Rose is both a liar and a loser. Losers don't get into Cooperstown and Rose should not be an exception.
After volating baseball's best known rule, he spent the next 14 years lying about it. Beyond that, he continued to deceive his most dedicated fans (witness Don Santos' post above).
Pete Rose is just a crum-bum who has already sucked too much life out of baseball. Hall of Fame material? Never!
Posted by: Brent Mack on January 7, 2004 11:03 AMPete is an arrogant hard headed liar who copntinues to lie and put his arrogance on display regarding his actions. He
parlayed average baseball skills into a phenomenal career, but after reviewing Shoeless Joe's case closer, I'm convinced Pete shouldn't get in the hall of fame if Shoeless Joe doesn't. Keep the man far far away from baseball as swell..anyhow his eligibility is gone after next year.
I am all for Pete Rose being in the National Baseball Museum's Hall of Fame, whenever he buys a ticket for admission.
He gambled on baseball. It is the golden rule. He continued to gamble, when confronted by the Commissioner's office, believing that he was above the rules.
Gambling is the one major sin in baseball. There is a sign about it at every major league club house. They don't have a sign about murder, wife-beating, using cocaine, income tax evasion, or other wrong doing. It is not that these wrongs are condoned, but it is that gambling is different. Study the history of the game in the 1870s. The reason there is a scoreboard is because of gamblers. The reason there is a commissioner is because of gamblers. The reason for many of the rules of baseball is all because of gambling. And gambling is the reason that Pete should never be in the Hall of Fame.
He was a great, fierce competitor. Great hitter. Made the most of his skills. Loved to win, so much it was contagious. He knew the rules on gambling, continued to gamble after being quietly confronted about it years ago... come on, he has no business in the Hall. There are already a few in there that should not have been enshrined.
I don't mind living in a democratic country, I do mind it when the majority thinks they are right. They are merely the majority, and occasionally the majority is wrong about stuff. I'm all for free speech. So I'm not denouncing the groups out there petitioning for Pete, sell those T-shirts! Truthfully, though, in baseball, gambling is different from all else. The felony tax conviction isn't alone a sufficient reason to keep Pete out of the Hall of Fame (although it should be considered). The gambling is a slam dunk no brainer.
To think otherwise is to ignore the foundations and history of baseball, the truth of what Pete did, and the entire idea of the Hall of Fame.
Posted by: Frank Wakefield on January 8, 2004 6:05 AMDear Pete,
I'm for free-speech, day dreams eternal hope and you are exercising all of the above.
Two things moved me about your thinking during your interview on prime time 1/08/04. You started to say--" I did nothing wrong"--then quickly changed the utterance by going to another related idea;you still can't see the wrongness in your actions--14 years later; and your self importance is still doing you in. And that my friend is your weakness. "Those empty seats need asses in them" is a degrading way to see your fans. As a sport consumer-supporter--AS A FAN I DO NOT LIKE THE REFERENCE-the value YOU expressed regarding your fans. Yet, you have the rignt to express your opinion of your fans to your fans.
Love you Pete--but you made a deal with baseball and you can't RENEGE now. As a betting man you should know this. It was you who, met with the commissioner; it was you who, agreed to move forward accepting certain arrangements--and a judgement deal within baseball that satisfied everyone--to renege now, is not the classey thing to do. Be a man and move on--show the kids that, while it's difficult, one can bounce back and go on to do good things--or do you really think we are all asses???
I think Pete Rose is beeing railroaded and it all started with the commissioner of baseball. The vendetta that the commissioner had against Pete in the beginning was the start of it all. Pete earned his way into the hall of fame by the way he played baseball and that is the whole issue. If our morals are such that we hold the fact that he bet on baseball against him we should have impeached President Clinton for lying as well and on a much worse issue. Not only did Clinton embarrass himself in front of the United States but he embarrased the United States in front of the world. I've heard so much "junk" on this subject regarding what letting Pete into the hall of fame will teach our children about lying, if that's the case, Clinton taught them long before Pete did. What did Clinton do to deserve to stay in office as opposed to Pete working his butt off doing a job that he truely loved that entertained many of us. I say give Pete what he worked so hard to get. Give him the hall of fame and get over it. He deserves it.
Posted by: on January 9, 2004 3:59 PMI think Pete Rose is beeing railroaded and it all started with the commissioner of baseball. The vendetta that the commissioner had against Pete in the beginning was the start of it all. Pete earned his way into the hall of fame by the way he played baseball and that is the whole issue. If our morals are such that we hold the fact that he bet on baseball against him we should have impeached President Clinton for lying as well and on a much worse issue. Not only did Clinton embarrass himself in front of the United States but he embarrased the United States in front of the world. I've heard so much "junk" on this subject regarding what letting Pete into the hall of fame will teach our children about lying, if that's the case, Clinton taught them long before Pete did. What did Clinton do to deserve to stay in office as opposed to Pete working his butt off doing a job that he truely loved that entertained many of us. I say give Pete what he worked so hard to get. Give him the hall of fame and get over it. He deserves it.
Posted by: on January 9, 2004 3:59 PMPete deserves what he agreed to... Banned.
Posted by: on January 9, 2004 4:57 PMI believe Pete Rose should NOT be inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. He lied, he gambled. What is the message we should give the future generations? Should it be that if you lie you are rewarded? Or should it be that if you lie you pay the price? I think it should be the latter. Liers and cheaters should NOT be rewarded. They should pay the price of their lies.
Pete Rose is a lying scumbag and should never be allowed in the HOF. He continues to lie to everybody on this earth about what he did(boy, i cant wait for his THIRD biography. The one where he REALLY comes clean). Hes a dispicable human being. They should open up a 'Hall Of Shame' and make him the first inductee.
'Boooooooooooooooooo!' to Rose. The bloom is off.
PETE SHOULD BE IN THE HALL, THE HALL OF SHAME, HE BET ON BASEBALL AND NOW HAS SAID THAT HE DID AFTER DENYING IT FOR SO MANY YEARS, SHOULD WE LET A LIAR AND CHEATER INTO ONE OF THE MOST HONORABLE PLACES, THE ANSWER IS NO!
Posted by: Colin Chudzick on January 20, 2004 6:04 AMI don't like the fact that he gambled any more than anyone else, however...
It is impossible to justify omitting the man with more hits than any person to ever hold a bat.
Do you think that Michael Jordan will be kept out of the NBA Hall of Fame?
(And please, don't tell me you think HE didn't gamble on hoops!) He didn't retire from hoops to play
baseball to follow a dream
...he was asked to leave...suspended if you will.
Let the arguments begin....
Posted by: D Jones on January 21, 2004 9:58 AMPete Rose, Brought his book out to force the Comm. to place him up for the HOF. WE all know Rose expects to make 2 Mil or more from his book, the Comm. should tell Rose this, "Pete you want in the HOF, here is what Baseball will do, for you. Pete you MUST Donate 1/2 of all Dollars that you make on your BOOK to the Children Homes in all the town that you played in during your time in baseball, our office will handle the funds. Then one day after your death, I will issue a special award to the HALL OF FAME for PETE ROSE. If this is not agreeable, then forget it. IT"S OVER for you PETE ROSE.
Posted by: Bob St. John on January 24, 2004 9:19 AMi think that pete rose should be inducted into the hall of fame because to be inducted into the hall of fame it is how you playnot how you act out side f the game, there for yes he should be inducted intot he hall of fame.
Posted by: chris tuttle on February 3, 2004 5:19 AMshouldnt because he wwas gambiling
i dont think so cause he discraced his team. he should go to hall of SHAME!
Posted by: on March 13, 2004 5:24 PMThere is no doubt in my mind that Pete Rose was a phenomenal baseball player. However, his credibility and character are all factors that will eternally separate himself from "the great one's." Alex Rodriguez is paid higher than any other player for a reason. In my opinion he is right in saying "As role models we have responsibilites to live our lives knowing that what we do will effect those who influence." Rose lied to the not one but two Commissioners, his teammates, family not to mention all baseball fans around the world and did not feel an ounce of remorse for it. The only reason he confessed is so he might have a chance in being reinstated before his 20 year retirement time comes up!
Posted by: T Morin on March 21, 2004 3:06 PMevery one could get a sec. chanse. We all do stupid stuff in ure lives!!
Posted by: on March 23, 2004 11:22 AMi ment every one should get a sec. chance!!!
i think he should be on the hall of fame,people make mistakes
Posted by: kayla louis on April 13, 2004 6:16 PMi think he should be on the hall of fame,people make mistakes
Posted by: kayla louis on April 13, 2004 6:16 PMyall need calm don bout dis here probem! Yall he jus played baseball an gambleded sumtimes. he shuld be in da hall of fame.
Posted by: Billy Joe on April 15, 2004 9:55 AMPete Rose should be in the hall of fame it was just betting
Posted by: Tanner on May 4, 2004 7:43 AMPete Rose is probably the greatest ball player of all time. He played the game his entire career the way you try and teach youngsters to play. The Hall of Fame is truly a Hall of Shame without him there. I believe most true sports fans feel like i do. Induct him now!!
Posted by: Steve on June 13, 2004 6:30 AM